jervisjohnsons

Brian, if you look under the Chaos Knight entry, they do not come with a "Hand Weapon" Essentially, under the Ensorcelled Weapon rule it is saying that the hand weapon is the ensorcelled weapon. I think the "regardless of form" rule is meant to say that it doesnt matter what the models is armed with (think the models arm, the model itself) it counts as an ensorcelled weapon. Whether you put on an axe, cleaver, putty a dildo on the model or whatever... I dont think that they meant any equipment purchased counts as an ensorcelled weapon.

I look at it this way, there is nothing there that says a lance is ensorcelled. If they wanted the lance to be S7 (which would be awesome by the way) then it would say something like "upgrade to an ensorcelled lance".

Joe, the rules don't say ensorcelled hand weapon. It says ensorcelled weapon. It also says in the BRB "It is assumed that all models are armed with a mundane hand weapon in addition to any equipment they have, unless specifically noted in the unit's description." Which, it isn't. It doesn't say that the Ensorcelled bonus only applies to the hand weapon, or that it applies to all weapons carried, and this is my problem with the argument. I don't see it as ambiguous at all. It doesn't say the knights AREN'T armed with hand weapons, so we have to assume, as per Aaron's ruling & the BRB, that they also have a mundane hand weapon. It's the only way this ruling can work.

You can interpret it as you see fit, but by letter of the rules, this is how I see it with the way Aaron ruled it:

Ensorcelled Weapons is an independant rule.

Each Knight is armed with an ensorcelled weapon.

The independant rule applies only to the ensorcelled weapon, not to unit upgrades, e.g. lances.

Ensorcelled weapons are not magical weapons, they grant magical attacks. (This is specified under a few areas in a multitude of books- Dwarf runic items, etc.) If they were magical weapons, it would say Magical weapon, +1 strength.

Each model, then, is armed with a basic hand weapon, and an ensorcelled weapon, and can choose which to use freely. (As per the BRB.)

You can't, without violating the basic rules of the game, and with Aaron's judgement, assume they DON'T have ensorcelled weapons and a regular hand weapon, because the BRB clearly says otherwise.

You can call me a rules Nazi on this, that's fine. But you can't make something that says a, b and c say x, y, and z instead without reprocussions.

bdickj wrote:you can't make something that says a, b and c say x, y, and z instead without reprocussions.

And i think this is why Knights are not S7 at the Conflict this year.

they are equiped with enscrolled weapons, they can be "upgraded to lances" ergo they are different. it's an a and b logical situation.

i can lend you me logic book from college and draw you up a logical equation that will prove lances are not enscrolled weapons. sorry B. most of the time i'd back you, but it's clear that lances are not an enscrolled weapon

Bill, Joe, don't fucking patronize me. I've used a logical solution to reach the conclusion that I've reached. I'm sorry your limited intillects can't grasp the fact that a blanket statement covers all objects under said category, unless exclusions are noted, which, in this case, they aren't.

No one has proposed a specific argument to counteract the fact that a lance is a weapon.

What I am saying is this. Aaron is saying an ensorcelled weapon is a seperate category which affects the knight themselves. Fine, I don't agree but I have to abide by it for the tournament. But if you're making that ruling, the knight also must have a hand weapon.

Logic? Well, I've proven it within the rules context. All you guys have proven is that you have nothing exemplary to add to this argument except belittling comments and crude comparisons which lack forethought. I forgot I was arguing amongst simpletons here.

Oh, and another thing, Bill, just to prove my point. If you upgrade something, you don't alter the basic form, you simply enhance the object.

I have a Mazda 3. I Take the Mazda 3 to the shop, and put a new motor in it, upgrading it.

Is the car not still a Mazda 3?


Or is this analogy too difficult to figure out?

Yes its still a Mazda 3 but you cant have 2 motors in the car...

When you upgrade the Knights weapon (just like the motor) the Knight doesnt change, his weapon (the cars motor) changes. You dont keep the original weapon (just like you dont have 2 motors installed in the Mazda) you get the new upgraded version.

I know you're trying to be funny, but the way I take it is this:

The Base form of weapon, applied per the rules in the Chaos Knight Entry is Ensorcelled Weapons.

If you upgrade ensorcelled weapons to lances, it's the same as the mazda 3. It's still an ensorcelled weapon, but it's a lance now, too.

If you look at the entry and apply basic theory to the issue, you'll come to the same conclusion. If ensorcelled weapons are a seperate entity as Aaron is proposing, then the knight has an ensorcelled weapon AND a hand weapon and can choose freely between the two.

I am not really trying to be funny, you are looking at the same situation 2 different ways. Here let me try this:

A Mazda 3 is a car. A Mazda 3 has an 4cy engine. The engine is not the car. You can upgrade the 4 cy engine to a 6cy engine. The Mazda 3 now has a better engine, a 6cy, but it does not keep the 4cy engine.

You have a Chaos Knight. He is a Knight. He has an Ensorcelled Weapon. You can upgrade his Ensorcelled Weapon to a Lance but he is still a Knight. He is now a Knight with a Lance but he does not keep the Ensorcelled Weapon because he now has a Lance, not an Ensorcelled Weapon.

If the WoC book said he had an Ensorcelled Lance upgrade then i would agree. If it had an actual rule that says "any weapon carried by a Chaos Knight is ensorcelled" i would agree. It doesnt say either of those things so i do not think they are S7.

Again this is pointless until it comes out in a FAQ or clarified by GW. I would love if my Chaos Knight became S7 with lances. That would be fucking awesome!!!

Joe, you're still not addressing the basic points of my argument. You're talking about a whole, not the object in consideration.

If I upgrade my Mazda 3 with a new engine, sure it's still a Mazda 3. But it's also still got an engine, just a better engine.

If I upgrade the basic form of ensorcelled weapon to lance, which changes? Is it now an ensorcelled lance, or a weapon lance?

I'm not going to argue intent, but, why is it, that this is the single, only use of the verbiage "Upgrade" when it comes to equipment throughout all of the Fantasy books? It always says: Replace, May be armed with.. etc. If it said Swap ensorcelled weapons for lances, I'd agree. But it doesn't.

Bah, whatever, I'm not going to repeat myself over and over. I see no valid arguments that debunk any of the logic I've applied. It's fair that I disagree. I just don't see how anyone can call my logic flawed, when clearly, it seems quite the opposite.

We just see the same rule 2 different ways... i still love you.

I ain't mad atcha.

Ya Bj sorry man but your your trying to take an advantage of an ambiguous rule. Unfortonatly the lances arent Ensorcelled and no where does it say they are. so you can't claim the advantage. Your just assuming they are and don't get me wrong i'm assuming that they are not, but i rather wait till they FAQ it it, and not take the advantage.

I'm not repeating my entire argument here, Mike.

Reguardless of form and Upgrade are pretty clear indicators of how the rule works.

That's all I'm going to say.

Oh, and take advantage? Dude, I am not even building my chaos army right at this point. Just to be a douchebag, I am going to keep playing daemons, until something more broken comes out, then I might switch it up.

but the new engine does not opperate the same way as the old engine.

the same rules, laws, functions do not apply.

this doesn't need and FAQ. it's pretty clear. they'll put out and FAQ maybe because people will try to fight for the higher strength.

the verbage is clear... enscrolled = A, lance = B. A does not equal B unless said rule - all weapons held by knight are considered enscrolled - C

C does not exist A does not equal B!!!!!