jervisjohnsons

Alright, I know Kistler and I had spoken about this before, but after readin the book, I agree with him.

Do Chaos Knights who purchase lances count ensorcelled weapon upgrades, as well?

Under the unit entry and rules for Chaos Knights, it says all their weapons count as ensorcelled. And then it says "Upgrade Ensorcelled weapons to lances for +5 points." After reading it, it seems them would be upgraded to lances but not lose their ensorcelled bonus. What do you guys think?

i restrict the right to comment on above said controversy.

I heard from some kid at the last tourney i was at that at Balti or Chigago (one of the 2, i dont remember which one) but they said the Lances counted as S7 magical, think about it... if you actually bought the lances you would be downgrading the unit.

I will post this on the Colonial boards, more people have been reading those boards lately.

why the duck would you pay 6pts if they don't?

that's quack yo

I think it's too low a point cost for the lances. And it does read upgrade to "lances" not upgrade to "ensocrelled lances"

duck you.

Hey language! Anyways in the description for ensorcelled weapons is says "magical blades, cleavers, and pikes". Sorry no lances anywhere. Everyone would then take 4 unites of knights. They're not Blood knights. They are only special choice.

Regardless of form is inclusive of any type of item that could be considered a weapon. A fucking candlestick with pink dildo shaped candles waved in a provocative fashion could be considered a weapon.

Prove to me that regardless of form excludes lances (It isn't excluded) and prove to me that Lances aren't a weapon (I'm willing to test this one!) and I'll agree. Otherwise, sorry, lances are ensorcelled weapons.

So I have been looking over this for some time now. I got an email about it last week regarding TCGT and how I was going to rule on it.

I answered the email just now, with this

Hello,

I have not been playing Knights with lances to be that of S7.

I am aware of the situation and I will rule on the matter in the week to come.

Thanks

~Aaron~

Hey,

Regarding the S7 knights, and as you asked for my train of thought and my reasoning here goes.

My train of thought is this:

You do not get +2 on the charge and then +1S and magical abilities.
According to the rule book, even though it refers to charceters, if a magical weapon is equipped he has to use it.

Regarding the S7:

P48 WoC. Ensorcelled weapons description: "Regardless of their form...they are enchanted in order to kill"

-I infer that regardless of what hand weapon I show on them, it is considered ensorcelled. As you can see on the spru there is numerous types of weapons.

P125 WoC. "Upgrade ensorcelled weapons to lances"

-I question if the book should read as so "upgrade to ensorcelled lances"

-They use the term "upgrade"

-Wight blades come to mind as any weapon they hold still causes KB and magical attacks

P 36/44/45 VC. Wight Blade: "any weapon carried by a..."

-In comparison to Ensorcelled weapons to say wight blades, ensorcelled weapons is specifically talking about the weapon, and independent rule. Where as wight blade is talking about the model.

I feel that the EW rules is specifilay a rule for that weapon, not for lances.

I do grasp that it can be implied by whoever is reading it that the +1S and magical attacks apply to "whatever form of weapon"

But that rule is clearly independent, and only talking about EW's. We can see that in similar rules that give the benefit of a special ability and magical attacks such as wight blades, the rule is not independent of it self and it is very clear that it is talking about any weapon that the model wields.

At best, I can say that the wording would need to be clarified if indeed the EW rule does apply to lances.

For that reason alone, I can not grant the benefit to WoC players.

Again Lances have their own rules when we look at lances.
EW have their own rules when we look at EW's.

My ruling is that the EW rules is independent of itself and does not give benefits to the lances.

seems to follow a solid logic there... i'd be inclined to agree

Sounds good to me. Although i would want S7 Knights since i take 3 units of them, i am glad you rules otherwise because i think thats just the way it is (unless clarified in the future by GW)

well of course the chaos player would prefer the S7... silly joe.

but looking at the evidence i'd be inclined to Bitch slap anyone who tries to claim they are infact S7. That's Bitch slap with a capital B yo.

How bout a quack slap?

I disagree in this case, but as a TO, your decision is law at this tournament.

I look at it in this light; it doesn't specify specifically that Ensorcelled weapons are exclusive of lances, nor does it specify they are inclusive of lances. The only logical train here is that "regardless of form" line. Aaron believes that ensorcelled weapons is distinct in that it is a weapon rule, but it doesn't cover lances.

Here's my logic (Which was called flawed, but I disagree.) If you have four people, and say that regardless of form, they have hair, you don't get to say that black people don't have hair, because regardless of form is a blanket statement that covers all "people." In this case, it is saying regardless of form, they are ensorcelled. Why then, are lances, or cap guns, or halberds, excluded? It doesn't make sense.

I understand the train of thought that it is an independant rule- but I disagree on the terms of usage inherent to this "independant rule."

Aaron, I know you said I was splitting hairs when we discussed this, but it's obvious that either way you rule it people are going to try and find a way around it, eg. Hand Weapons. If you're saying an Ensorcelled weapon is an independant rule and something equipped to the Chaos Knight, then we must assume (As per the BRB) that chaos knights are also armed with a regular hand weapon and can choose which to use. This is because the Ensorcelled weapons aren't magical weapons per say, but grant the user magical attacks. I'm not going to get into intent here, but by letter of the rules, if I have Chaos Knights which do not have lances, and it is beneficial to me to use regular hand weapons, I am assuming that under your judgement that I am able to do so, because otherwise it's against the rules.


Let me propose it this way- Dryads. Dryads are Forest Spirits which have magical attacks. This means anything they carry would have the same benefit, example, Great Weapons. If you could arm them with Great Weapons, then they'd be magical great weapons. Looking at Wights, it's the same thing. After our discussion last night, I thought about this further (call it wrong logic, but whatever.) If a Chaos Knight has this proposed independant rule, then the chaos knight has to have a Hand Weapon in addition to it. It's the same as a character with magical weapon- He has a magical sword, but also a mundane hand weapon also. Granted, these are not magical weapons by definition of the rules, but it's the only way to address the situation in a logical manner. You can't say it applies to all forms of weapons he carries, except lances, otherwise. If it's an independant rule that effects one item the Knight carries, it must remain at that or go against the basics. It's not fair to anyone playing Chaos to take away the basic rules of the game, ie, give them the independant ensorcelled weapon rule, but not allow a basic hand weapon in addition to it.