jervisjohnsons

A question came up in a game i played last night...

I was fighting a unit of Skeletons with the Vamp Lord swinging the Tomb Blade. I killed all models in the unit except the General and a Vampire.

Now, if the unit is dead, will the Tomb Blade bring models back up into that combat since at the start of that combat phase the Skeletons were alive, or will nothing happen.

I am pretty sure nothing would happen because there is no longer a unit to raise into but i just want to check. I dont have VC book so i dont know how its worded and it may be answered in the book itself.

It depends on what happened.

If you attack and kill all the skellies, and then the General and Vamp hit back and then you take wounds...the skellies would come back.

However, if it was the turn after, the two characters would no longer be classified as a single unit, as two characters can't join a unit, so with that in mind, the skellies could also no longer be raised as there is no "unit" for them to join.

There really is no wording on when does the "unit" stop becoming a unit...

I could be wrong, I also don't have the book in front of me.

Aaron that HAS to be wrong. There is no way you can raise back a wiped out unit.

Once all the models are dead the unit is gone and can't come back. With that line of logic you could heal back units that are wiped out even though all the models are gone. I mean, by your line of reasoning, whats to stop the VC player from raising back the unit in the next magic phase?

Unless the Tomb Blade has some rule that says otherwise there is no way you can add models to a unit that does not exist.

Correct, which is why I said if it was the following turn they would not be able to be raised.

It is still the same round of combat correct?

Unit gets hit, Skellies die, Vamp hits back and raises the dead skellis.

There is no other way that you could raise a unit back up from the dead in any other manner such as this.

Which is why I think it would be the exception as it is still the same turn of combat.

Move/ Magic/ Shoot/ Combat...it would be impossible to raise a unit that has already died in a previous phase if the unit is completely wiped out.

So to restate, because it is still in the same phase/combat turn, the unit is there.

I could be wrong though.

Still have yet to look at a book to find wording or anything.

I think the main component here is that the ability is unique and raises as if IoN has been cast after wounds have been dealt, which is still in the same combat phase that the models died.

So what if its still the same phase? The unit is dead. Gone. Wiped out. No models left. How do you add to that?

Anyway the Tomb Blade rules say models are added as if IoN had been cast. I think that's pretty clear, you can't invoke a unit that does not exist.

When does a unit no longer count as a unit?

When all models are dead, I assume?

hmmm....I don't think there are any rules that state when the unit not counted as a unit.

So again I could be wrong.

Just some more questions to ask...

When do characters become "Individual" and separate from the unit that it had joined while in combat?

Does the term "combat phase" matter? It may not, I think it does with using the wording of "Unit".

For example, say I have my Dwarf unit in combat, and I have two characters in the unit, all my warriors in the unit die except for the two characters.

My BSB is within 12" giving off its Stromni red beard ability, do I take a +1 for the unit, or do I take a +2 now because it is two separate units because two characters can't be a unit.

I have been playing it that it was a single unit and after the whole combat phase they split up so I only get a +1.

Things to think about...the combat phase for the unit is over as we are counting combat rez, but just for the unit, not the whole phase.

In the vampire situation , the units combat phase is not over, so is the vampire still in his unit of skeletons.

I dont know about the characters, are they still considered a Unit until the next phase, or do they immediatly become single models/indivisual units. Would they take 2 break tests, or 1 since they were 1 unit to start the combat?

Also, IF the tomb blade did bring models back into a unit that is wiped out, the command would come back first... would the controlling player get to choose which model to bring back? (Std over Champ ect.)

Damn rules are annoying.

Aaron, the characters aren't part of a unit, they "join the unit" kind of like illegal immigrants in a van- they are in, but not part of, the van.

When all models are killed, the characters become individual of each other immediately. So, they'd each get +1 for the banner. And in this case, the Skellies would NOT be coming back.

So if i have Princes in the rear of the unit, Spears and Scouts in the flank and all Skeletons are dead then each single character becomes individual again, IE 2 break test or in this case, each lose combat by X amount.

Correct?

You become individuals immediately.

Aaron, again by that logic you could claim bonuses for the unit even though it doesn't exist. For example banner and war banner, why can't you use them if the characters are still keeping "the unit" alive? Or for that matter how about magical effects, if the elves with standard of balance die do the characters still get it? the unit is dead so how can the characters benefit from a unit that does not exist?

I guess thats how it works...

Truthfully I really don't know.

However, I just happen to think that it is a different train of thought in coming to the conclusion that I came to.

Combat:

You swing...kill skellies

~I swing...Kill models and raise skellies...

~then Count Combat Resolution...+1Banner(if banner did get raised)

then Combat over.

Where as for gaining CR with banners etc.

it is

~You swing...kill skellies

~I swing...

~Count Combat Resolution...Banner doesn't count because unit is dead.

Combat over

I think it is the extra step in raising the unit that makes the difference and because this is a unique item, I would argue that it works in this manner.

But I think I might be the minority on this one, which probably means that I am wrong.

Andre thought it worked that way too, so you are not alone!

Andre the cheater!

you have to have a unit to target to bring back bodies, next time take a damn cc.